A Proposed Plan

[Fly Swatter]

Does this "match" style system really appeal to noobs and players who prac in the long run?
I don't know, coz otherwise we would have found them playing more pracs :/

Its a good point, concept design for pub isn't a easy thing. Im many ways it would just be easier to build a new zone, but we have elements of the zone that isn't so easily abandoned.

Moving to a Linux server seems more and more possible, but we need some ground work done in advance, in terms of game concept design. Otherwise we would just have the same zone running on another server and whats the point of that.

Short term plans of the zone can differ from the longer.

-Fly

[falconeer]

Who cares if you have the same zone on another server. The point is it will be DSB whether it's Subgame or AS3. The only difference is how the bots/modules and coding gets done. It also enables more of these ideas to actually be possible.

The idea is to show people you are actually doing something other than talking about doing something. We've been having this discussion to improve pub for 2 years since Entropy took over. Nothing was done, and he was preaching he wanted to move to ASSS too. Fuck off and move already. Then we'll change how pub works after we move.

It will also be easier because once your AS3 people will believe you are not incompetent. Coding is easier, and more people on continuum code for that format, so you will get more developers helping you.

You have an IDEA already for pub. Tembest and Sever gave you good points. Don't fucking code it for subgame. Code for ASSS, and move over.

[jim the chin]

A kill is worth 150 points - no punishment for the dying team. 1 flag is worth 10 points for each player on the team.
In east: 3 players = 1 flag = 30 pts
In south: same
In west: 2 players = 1 flag = 20 pts
In north: 4 players = 1 flag = 40 pts

That looks like how it works in league, but are the prac bots the same? Something seems different. For example this recent prac:

First half statistics:
-----------------
Name | P| Ki/De Ratio As EA TK| FT/BF
-----------------
| cranberryjuice | E| 12/6 2.00 2 0 0| 50/53
| Resistance | E| 9/9 1.00 3 5 0| 12/11
| sea bass | E| 10/7 1.43 2 0 0| 40/34
-----------------
|Freq 0 | 3| 31/22 1.41 7 5 0| 102/98
|=================================
| Pater Punishment | E| 10/8 1.25 5 0 0| 30/12
| Zimmel | E| 6/6 1.00 3 4 0| 33/16
| (Sub)jamuraan | E| 5/2 2.50 1 0 0| 10/11
| bluE- | E| 1/15 0.07 0 0 0| 21/3
-----------------
|Freq 1 | 4| 22/31 0.71 9 4 0| 94/42
|=================================
Score Freq 0: 9065, Freq 1: 5530. Freq 0 by 3535

Freq 0 has 31 kills, which is 4650 points (150 points per kill).
Freq 0 has 98 bell flags, which is 2940 points (30 points per bell flag per team).
Freq 0 has 1475 too many points (=9065-4650-2940) in the prac score. What is missing?
Freq 1 has 22 kills and 42 bell flags giving them 4560 points. They have 970 too many points in the prac score.

Are we still giving extra points for kills while flags are held?

That's the situation for pracs. However, in sector league matches, there are no mysterious extra points, and your formula produces the correct scores. In those matches, the kills do seem to be weighted too heavily, as you're all saying.

[Tembest]

I have absolutely no idea where those points come from. Perhaps there's an error in the code.

I remember once I had changed the kill value to 80, like half a year later Eridu came to me asking if I had touched the kill value because
for some odd reason, at least according to him, in a prac one team had more kills AND more bell flags, yet lost the prac.

I told him to back then provide me with the log because that should not be possible in any way unless there's an error in the code.
I did not get the log but it seems he could have been correct after all.

But... one thing is bothering me? Has somebody coded a new bot because when Prac League was starting somebody told me we are
using Ent's bot?!? Now if that's the case, how is it possible in one arena the scores are correct and in the other one completely messed
up? Could Fly perhaps have a look at this?

Edit: And I cannot freaking believe the kill value is still 150!??! It literally takes 2 seconds to change the value once in the arena. I would
change it again to 80 but I don't want to get into an unnecessary fight once again... Even the league was started with 150... christ

[jim the chin]

It is remarkable that we're using 150 points per kill in league. It should be reduced as soon as possible, meaning right now (Beer Hunter, Eridu?). If you look at some of the sector league scores, and calculate the contribution that kills make to them, it's about 70% of all the points. I would reduce it to 100 points per kill before the next set of league games. At least it's obvious how these scores work, and how they should be fixed.

Now, the above prac scores are from ?go dsb. The mystery extra points in here appear to be linked to kills. One team has 31 kills and 1475 extra points. The other has 22 kills and 970 extra points. So the ratios are similar: 31/22 ~ 1475/970.

It seems to be a relic of the old score system where kill points were linked to the amount of flags being held at the time of the kill. If we assume the winning team has a flag average of about 9.5, while the other has 8.8, then for every kill, players are awarded [10*(number of flags held)/2] points on top of the 150 kill points. This accounts for the extra points. So basically, each time someone gets a kill, they get half the flag points they'd get from a ding. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like.

[jim the chin]

killflagpoints = killBonus * flag count of the other team // killBouns is set to 5

In fact, this appears to describe exactly what I've just said. I calculated "[10*(number of flags held)/2]" so this is basically 5 * flag count, though I'm not sure about the "other team" part. I assume you're looking at the bot from ?go dsb here Fly? So, I believe the bit of code above is describing bonus points that you get when you make a kill. It is highest when you have all the flags, making it worthwhile to get kills when you have more of the flags. We don't appear to have this bit of code on the league bots.

[jim the chin]

Oh the "other team" is because it's for a death statistic. Not important then. Sorry, I've made this seem overly complicated.

For the bot in ?go dsb:

Points Per Kill = 150 + 5*flagcount
Points Per Ding = 10*flagcount

But for the league bots in ?go dsbl(1,2,3,4):

Points Per Kill = 150
Points Per Ding = 10*flagcount

Simple enough. Now it's just a matter of adjusting the values based on what is going to be happening in pub, and deciding whether you want to keep the kill-bonus (5*flagcount). I think kills should be worth slightly more when you have more flags. So I'd keep it, but I would reduce it from 5 to 2.

As Tembest suggested, the most important thing is to adjust the "Points per Kill" based on the team size. You're already planning to adjust the number of active flag-poles, and game-length according to team size, so this would go into the same condition. Temb said a kill shouldn't be worth less than 2 flags, which sounds alright because we'll want to emphasize flags more in pub I think, so something like:

Max team size ; kill points
1 ; 20
2 ; 40
3 ; 60
4 ; 80
5 ; 100
6 ; 120
7 ; 140
8 ; 160
etc.

[Tembest]

It seems I did not pay enough attention. Thanks Sever! You are absolutely correct with the formula.

I do not consider it necessarily a bad thing a kill is worth slightly more when flags are held.
The only downside is the difficulty to track score and read score sheets.

Sever, the reason I mentioned I cannot believe league was started with 150 points is because no matter how
retarded the scoring is, you should not change it during the league. The league was started that way, so it
should also end in the same way. I know people do not really practice strategies anymore or care for victories
as they did 10 years ago, but lowering the value of a kill in the middle of a league is still wrong. Such change
would radically change the game play for those who are interested in winning and know about the change.

Nonetheless, after league PLEEEEEEAAASE fix it right away.... as the "quick fix" takes only to type something like
:pracbot:!killvalue=80

[falconeer]

The other day beer was expressing frustration that I am pressuring him to actually do things in the zone. The same with fly swatter who made a joke he would become more scarce. These are the people who you have in charge, and if you want a change and someone who will actually listen to you, and more importantly act. Then you seriously are better off with me in the lead for at least a little while until the zone gets back on track. Keep in mind I can bring back snake, greenish, maybe tango and delic, and many more people. The other day I talked to some trench wars developers and some of them seemed willing to freelance us an new NKZ graphic. I've been complaining about ents practice bot virtually from day one, and nobody seemed to care or listen, and I was eventually given a 1 year ban for pointing out the obvious. Ent your practice bot fails. Ent you aren't fixing pub. Well fuck you too.

The fact that the scores were 150 for so long is a warning sign that there is something wrong with dsb staff. The fact that I had to even e-mail argyle is another warning sign. If these guys were proactive, and have initiative they would have e-mailed argyle and asked something be done about ent and liitos inactivity. But a banned person who was not even on dsb dev team at the time is the one trying to look out for the zone. And then I get shit insults that I don't care about the zone or it's future or the community? Yeah right. I am willing to try anyone's idea if it's reasonable and backed up with good points like Tembest's and severs ideas have been. Idea's deserve testing. I have no special investments or interests of my own. Just because I'm making a deathstar map doesn't mean I want to change league or anything like that. New maps ALWAYS start out as events/themes, and if the community wants them to be something more, thats their prerogative.

Honestly we had people with "Tact" in charge all these years, and all they did was be nice, ban you later, and took forever to act on anything. Tact is defined as skill in dealing with delicate situations. There is no delicate situation here, the situation in DSB is crap, not delicate. All that aside, it basically means discrimination, the keen sense of what is appropriate. Look I know what needs to be done, just as well as sever does, or tembest does at the very least. Lastly I don't discriminate and never have. Sick and tired of politicians running this zone, and tired of inheritance being the only condition to become sysop. Is this the age of kings all of a sudden? Only the blood line can rule? It's time for a man of action.

[Fly Swatter]

[quote="falconeer"]The other day beer was expressing frustration that I am pressuring him to actually do things in the zone. The same with fly swatter who made a joke he would become more scarce./quote]

I don't remember making any such joke as you say. In fact, I've been on-call at work 7 days a week 7am-8pm for the better part of the last 2 years. I was lucky enough to change that for a more normal 9 to 5 deal, this is why i've been MORE active theses last 6 weeks.

Lets recap:

1) I saved you a potential one year ban.
2) I keep you informed of whats going on.
3) I send you dev files, and try to get you to help map the current pub project.
4) It was my call to put you back on the dev team, and i did.
5) I set up a dev arena for you, and upload files when needed.
6) I reconfigured the pub bot to work with your theme map, and ran your map now twice.
7) I put up with your shit.

-Fly