Re-Organizing DSB

[falconeer]

These are Tembest's proposed values

100 North
75 East
75 South
50 West

So we are doing 1 kill is 2.5 flags.
Does that mean under Tembests points
West is worth 480 bell flag points at a ding (24 flags)
East is worth 600 bell flag points at a ding (20 flags)
South is worth 720 bell flag points at a ding (24 flags)
North is worth 1280 bell flag points at a ding (32 flags)

1 flag is worth 20 Points West
1 flag is worth 30 Points East
1 flag is worth 30 Points South
1 flag is worth 40 Points North

[jim the chin]

These are Tembest's proposed values

100 North
75 East
75 South
50 West

So we are doing 1 kill is 2.5 flags.
Does that mean under Tembests points
West is worth 480 bell flag points at a ding (24 flags)
East is worth 600 bell flag points at a ding (20 flags)
South is worth 720 bell flag points at a ding (24 flags)
North is worth 1280 bell flag points at a ding (32 flags)

1 flag is worth 20 Points West
1 flag is worth 30 Points East
1 flag is worth 30 Points South
1 flag is worth 40 Points North

I think that's exactly right. Although west is being played 3v3 now, so 1 flag is worth 30 points in West, and the whole sector is worth 720 bell flag points.

The problem is, Tembest seems to be suggesting that if we have to use a flat value across all sectors, then it should be 75. However, this would make kills in north worth a lot less than 2.5 flags. They'd be worth 1.875 flags. This is completely unacceptable to all of us I think.

If anything, 2.5 should be the absolute minimum, meaning, we should use the north kill value he's proposed: 100. This would mean that, in north, points from bell-flags would roughly equal the points obtained from kills (even if we ignore the extra flag points from the kill bonus). I think most of us want kills to be slightly favored over bell-flags because it's more fun to be chasing other players than it is to be chasing flags, and because tube-whoring could become a real issue again otherwise.

So if we pick 100, then kills = bell flags in north, but in the other 3 sectors kills would be worth slightly more than bell-flags. Obviously this ignores the extra flag points that get awarded via the kill-bonus, so I'm not too happy about it, but it's a compromise I can still stomach. I also think it would be the ideal situation for keeping most people happy.

[Tembest]

The problem is, Tembest seems to be suggesting that if we have to use a flat value across all sectors, then it should be 75. However, this would make kills in north worth a lot less than 2.5 flags. They'd be worth 1.875 flags. This is completely unacceptable to all of us I think.

Nah, I was merely explaining what would be an identical version of the 6vs6 game for east.

I agree that a kill/bf cannot be under 2. If we have to use a flat number it need to be at minimum 80. Preferably not much higher than that also
because 80 already means a ratio of 4 in west. I would like to test the game with 80 and with 100. A bonus between 3-4*flagcount.

And well yea, you're correct about the reset Sever, that the scoring needs to be fixed before that. I guess what I meant is that we do not need to really have
a number ready before the reset takes place.

I'll try to remember to log in on Sunday evening and let's do some testing. I have access to the bot so we can change the values.

I would still prefer a game where the kill value would be based on players in game though, but if Ent believes it is possible only if pracs are played in multiple
arenas, then I'm not really a fan of it.

[jim the chin]

Nah, I was merely explaining what would be an identical version of the 6vs6 game for east. I agree that a kill/bf cannot be under 2. If we have to use a flat number it need to be at minimum 80. Preferably not much higher than that also
because 80 already means a ratio of 4 in west. I would like to test the game with 80 and with 100. A bonus between 3-4*flagcount.

Fair enough. I would like to test that too. I think west is played 3v3 now though, so every sector would have a ratio less than 4, whether we use 100 or 80. I don't know if the prac bots are configured for 3v3 in west yet though. In league it's what we're doing.

Using 80 in north will make bell-flags more important than kills (before we even consider the value of `kill flag points'). I really don't think that's a good idea. It's even on the bare minimum of what you've recommended (kill = 2.0 flag minimum).

To explain, there are 32 flags in north and about 15 bells. That's 480 bell flags per game. There are about 160 kills in each north prac (20 per player roughly), so if kills are worth 2 flags (80 points), then that gives us a ratio of 480:320. Bell flags would dominate the scoring by a factor of 3:2 over kills.

In other words, using a kill value of 120 would actually be the ideal situation for north because it would make that ratio 1:1. I'm willing to use 100 though because we have to consider the other sectors.

I would still prefer a game where the kill value would be based on players in game though, but if Ent believes it is possible only if pracs are played in multiple
arenas, then I'm not really a fan of it.

Agreed on that. Though, as explained, I think my sector-dependent values might also be slightly higher than yours. Something like N=120, S=90, E=90, W=60 (if 2v2).

[jim the chin]

For kill points = 100
North: Bell-flags are slightly more important than kills.
East, South, and 3v3 west: Kills are slightly more important than bell-flags.

For kill points = 80
North: Bell-flags are massively more important than kills, by a factor of 3:2.
East, South, and 3v3 west: Kills are about the same as bell-flags.

That's what my rudimentary calculations suggest, though it could be confirmed with testing. I'm not too bothered by most of the scenarios, though I think 80 is slightly low for 3v3 games as well. Kills should have a slight edge over bell-flags. However, the north situation when kill points = 80 is a big problem for me. That's why I recommend we use 100 if it has to be fixed number.

[Tembest]

To explain, there are 32 flags in north and about 15 bells. That's 480 bell flags per game. There are about 160 kills in each north prac (20 per player roughly), so if kills are worth 2 flags (80 points), then that gives us a ratio of 480:320. Bell flags would dominate the scoring by a factor of 3:2 over kills.

That's not how you calculate the ratio between those. How many kills there are in total is not very relevant. There are just as many kills as people want to.
How many kills there are in total does not affect the gameplay. We are addressing issues concerning the gameplay and that is only about the relation of ONE kill to certain
number of bell flags.

We cannot, and should aim to control how points are distributed in a prac. We should only offer players a chance to choose their own tactic. If we emphasise kills too
much, all specials will be used for those, and if we emphasise bell flags too much all specials will be saved for those. They need to be in balance so people can choose their
own focus and rely on their own tactic. I think that has always been the beauty of DSB.

When Sai force won league, they did not have superior individuals, but they had a team that lost kills against the best teams but their flagging tactic and teamwork was
far superior to anyone else, hence they won the league. I think that is what DSB is about. Back then, it was too much about flagging though.

All this discussion is about what to do at ding: Should I save my specials? Should I suicide for flags? Should I forget the flags?
Our aim is to offer all alternatives to the players, and thus, promote use of various tactics.
players.

[jim the chin]

We are addressing issues concerning the gameplay and that is only about the relation of ONE kill to certain number of bell flags

Fine, then I'll explain it like this. If one kill is only worth 2 bell-flags, then about 3/5 of the points in a prac will come from bell-flags. They'll be prioritized, and you won't have a balance of strategies. You'd be able to kamikazi a flag pole, grab just 2 of the bell flags, and die, and it wouldn't matter because those 2 bell-flags got you enough points. Your team could sit in a tube, 2 people could port in and grab 4 measly flags at the ding, and even if they both die without getting any kills, it wouldn't matter because they got 4 flags between them. However, 2 people should be able to grab more than 4 flags, making tube-whoring an absolute necessity. Think about how easy right-north would be. You could just sit in the north tower until a few seconds before the ding, port in to grab flags, kamikazi until you recycle your ports, maybe fluke a kill in the process, rinse and repeat. You could probably win RN that way, even with 0.5 kill/death ratios.

However you look at it; whatever scenarios you come up, it's ridiculous. One kill should never be as worthless as two bell-flags.

[jim the chin]

Lets consider this in more detail. With 1 kill equaling two bell flags in north, hypothetically, if two right-north players sat in the north tower and ported out at each ding to recycle their specials, they'd both die 15 times in the prac. Say they only managed 8 kills each, meaning they were completely destroyed 16-30 overall. They'd only need 28 more bell-flags than the opposition to draw the game. There are 240 bell flags available in right-north during a prac (15 dings * 16 flags) so they'd need to win the flags 134-106 to draw the game. If they only won each ding 9-7, they'd get 135 bell flags and actually win the game! Even two utterly terrible players shouldn't have too much of a problem using this strategy to reach 9/16 flags before suiciding. If you do it right, you should be able to grab 12/16... then you could afford to lose 0-30. I'm not even kidding there. You wouldn't need a single kill.

Having a kill value of 80 will not work for north. Even 100 is too low. The only reason I've suggested 100 is because we'll probably have to use this value for the other 3 sectors too.... but 80 is completely unnecessary and will lead to what I've just said.

[Tembest]

Without going much in detail what you said, I'm going to say two things:

1. I agree 2 is very low, and I consider it the absolute minimum because anyone can warp atop two flags. The only reason I'm suggesting 80 is because after that, the
higher we go, other sectors suffer. I would rather have 2-3 playable sectors than only 1.

2. During the history of DSB, a kill has never ever in any sector been worth more than 2.5 bf's (which it was in 6vs6). Oh and for 6 vs 6, kill value was roughly doubled from
the previous value.
And no one, has ever found sitting in RN tower with two players a winning tactic. I get it works on paper... but it really doesn't in game. There are so many ways to counter
it. The other team likely has all specials at ding as well because they don't have to fight against you, and they are already inside RN while you're in tower. In other words,
you waste your portals to get in, at this point you're losing flags 12-4. Then you start fighting for flags against the other team (you have wasted portals, they have full
specials.)

I guess I don't have to teach you how to play RN... anyway, what seems easy on paper simply does not necessarily work in game, as it is in this case. Dozens and dozens
of teams have tried the tactic you're suggesting, but it just isn't a winning one...

East is the only sector where acquiring certain flags at a certain point of the game makes a difference and is actually hard to counter. The only way to counter good
tubing is actually to prevent the other team from getting into the tube. That is why it is the only sector where only one tactic is used.

[falconeer]

Yeah just remember, kills don't matter, and number of flags don't matter. The flag values are based on numbers of players. So to maintain 2.5 for each sector you need a certain flag value since each sector has different number of players. Kills don't matter because in many a league game I've seen people in 2 vs 2 west out preform North and East players in kill count. The player amount in a sector has only a small effect on kills.