Re-Organizing DSB

[jim the chin]

So my proposal is this:

Base Kill Value - Reduce to 120 points per kill.
Kill Flag Points - Keep at 5*flagcount per kill.
Bell Flag Points - Keep at 10 points per flag, per player.

For the prac scores quoted above, this would give us:

TEAM 1:
KILLS = 7320 points
Bell FLAGS = 4230 points
Kill FLAGS = 2885 points
Total = 14435 points

Team 2:
KILLS = 7680 points
Bell FLAGS = 4050 points
Kill FLAGS = 2410 points
Total = 14140 points

For both teams, kills are now worth about 50%. This is why I've proposed that the base kill value be reduced to 120 points. If we decide to get rid of "kill-flags", then the base kill value can be reduced to 80 points to maintain the 50% we all want. However, getting rid of this would be a terrible decision in my opinion. It would relegate flagging to being completely at the bells. Everyone will be spamming their specials in the last 10 seconds. Also, flagging during the other 70 seconds between bells would be almost completely pointless. If we keep "kill-flags" then some of the flag points come from having a territorial advantage during the game. For the aforementioned reasons, I believe this is worth keeping.

I hope this logic is clear to everyone, even if your reflex is to disagree with me Tembest. Just remember that you didn't even realize we have kill-flags before this discussion. Now that you know they're there, I hope you realize that kill points need to be about 120 to ensure that they're still worth 50% of the total. If you don't understand this now, I don't know what else to say. I've explained this clearly and logically. So take it or leave it.

[Tembest]

I'll leave it. Thank you.

The division between who wants to keep kill bonus is like 50/50. Regardless, you are the only person who has suggested a kill value above 100.

Even if in some magical way you got me to agree with you, everyone else would disagree... so...

Whether the kill bonus exists is irrelevant as I said. It a system that automatically requires both flags held and kills. Those flags alone are not worth anything, hence kill
bonus does NOT increase the value of flags. Only thing you can discuss regarding the bonus is how many points / per kill should it grant extra or if it should be enabled at
all.

People like it because it gives flagging during those 70 seconds a purpose, and they dislike it because "random elements" are added into the game. The fact that you just
happen to be lucky enough to enough to kill at the correct moments. As perfectly demonstrated in your prac statistics. You had a lower Avg Flags Held, yet you were
rewarded more kill bonus for your kills. Why? Because your team got lucky.

I don't know what I think about the bonus, I used to be in favour, but now I don't really care anymore.

The only reason you and I disagree on the kill value is because you somehow consider that the Kill Bonus gives flags more value than kills. I literally cannot understand
why would anyone think like that. Even if you have a 20 Flag Average, you won't get a single point UNLESS you kill someone, hence it is automatically a neutral factor.
Come on, we have even had a full scoring system based on that... We had a scoring system where kills were ONLY worth x*flagcount, and this was league, 12 vs 12...

By using your logic ALL points in that league came from flagging. As, according to you, kill bonus actually increases the value of flags.

Anyway, as I told you ages ago, I'm tired of this discussion. I'm switching jobs currently so life is very hectic and I don't really have time for this.

150 or 120 points. It would cause no difference on gameplay. No one likes the current scoring system. Everybody, except you, consider that kills are way way too
overvalued. Your positions is like Falc's here; fighting alone against the world.

See it does not matter who's right or wrong. What matters is that people are not happy with the current system as they believe kills are heavily overvalued.
Even if I agreed with you, it would be foolish of me to keep it some way no one is happy with...

If people were wondering whether kills are overvalued, then perhaps a cut to 120 would work, but they claim the problem is in the gameplay such high value causes.
150>120 would have absolutely no effect on gameplay.

[jim the chin]

Even if in some magical way you got me to agree with you, everyone else would disagree... so...

Let's hear from them.

No one likes the current scoring system.

Let's hear from them too. I think many people are unhappy with the system, and I'd like to know exactly what they want changed, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to you say that my view is wrong because "everyone else would disagree".

Your positions is like Falc's here; fighting alone against the world.

Well that's a pretty irrelevant ad-hom attack. So um, hey, your views are like Hitler's; totally intransigent. So glad we got this pointless exchange out of the way.

Everybody, except you, consider that kills are way way too overvalued.

Except me? Did you read my proposal? I want to reduce the value of kills by 20% in pracs, and 45% in league.

I guess misrepresentation of my proposed solution completes the set. So now I've made my way through your pointless list of fallacious arguments, it's worth addressing what's actually important.

but they claim the problem is in the gameplay such high value causes.
150>120 would have absolutely no effect on gameplay.

OK, so ignoring your "they claim" argument for a moment; you seem to be confusing pracs with the current league. In league, the gameplay is terrible because kills account for almost 75% of the points. Pracs have a different scoring system that includes `kill flag points'. So in pracs, kills are only worth about 60% of all the points. This is still too high, but it's why kill points only need to come down to 120 in pracs.

Whether the kill bonus exists is irrelevant as I said. It a system that automatically requires both flags held and kills. Those flags alone are not worth anything, hence kill bonus does NOT increase the value of flags. Only thing you can discuss regarding the bonus is how many points / per kill should it grant extra or if it should be enabled at all.

The only reason you and I disagree on the kill value is because you somehow consider that the Kill Bonus gives flags more value than kills. I literally cannot understand why would anyone think like that. Even if you have a 20 Flag Average, you won't get a single point UNLESS you kill someone, hence it is automatically a neutral factor.

The kill bonus = 5*flagcount. They're flag points. That's why they're actually called `kill flag points' in the code. The only relationship they have with kills is they're awarded when you get a kill.

In your impossible example where you don't get any kills at all (when does that happen?), you also wouldn't get any kill points. You'd only get points for flagging at the bells. Kill points are what rewards you for killing more than the other team. The `kill flag points’ are purely a flag-based bonus on top of what you already have (they are 5*flagcount).

Look at the prac scores I quoted earlier. We had fewer kills, and yet, we had more kill flag points. Holding more flags when you kill reduces any advantage that the other team gets by out-killing you. It works against kills, not for them.

Whether the kill bonus exists is irrelevant

If we didn’t have `kill flag points’ (kill bonus), the only reason to flag between dings would be to get a small head-start before a mad-dash, special-spamming, bore-fest in the 10 seconds before each ding.

In the current league, we don't have `kill flag points’. Ironically, the only reason we don’t suffer the above situation in league is because kill points are ridiculously high (150), making it not worth it. Obviously this is a terrible fix because it means kills are worth almost 75% of all the points in league. Reducing kill points from 150 to 80 would give us a 50/50 balance between flags and kills, but it would change the game-play to the “mad-dash, special-spamming at the ding” variety because all of those valuable flag points would come at the dings.

So the preferred solution (in league and pracs) is to have `kill-flag points’ so that flagging between dings is worthwhile, but also to set kill points to 120 so we can have a 50/50 balance. Win Win.

[Tembest]

We have heard from the people already a year ago.

What they state is wrong, concluded: "Bell Flags are almost meaningless, praccing is about killing"

Sorry for the comparison to Falc, it was by no means supposed to be an insult, nor was anything else I have said so far.
What I mean is that up to this date, I have not heard anyone supporting such a high kill value. (120)
Falc often has ideas that are not widely supported, hence the comparison...

Naturally league kill value cannot be touched midway league. So that is not part of this discussion. We are talking about the prac value now.
The original discussion over a year ago also considered the same scoring system we currently have in pracs.

Reducing kill points from 150 to 80 would give us a 50/50 balance between flags and kills, but it would change the game-play to the “mad-dash, special-spamming at the ding” variety because all the flag points would come at the dings.

Actually no.. See an 80-points kill equals worth of 2.66 bell flags. In other words, this means wasting specials is beneficial only if you can acquire 3 flags by that.

When a kill is worth 120 points. One kill equals 4 bell flags, which basically means that specials should be used for flags only if you can get more than 4 flags by
that. Which is, sometimes met, but never exceeded as a pole only contain 4 flags.

Perhaps this made you understand the problem. People want one kill be equal of worth to 2-3 bell flags. Leave the bonus out of the discussion already. The bonus does
not affect the use of specials. Why do they want the kill/bf relation close to 50/50? So that it would not be clear for which specials should be used.

If we didn’t have `kill flag points’ (kill bonus), the only reason to flag between dings would be to get a small head-start before a mad-dash, special-spamming, bore-fest in the 10 seconds before each ding.

That is not what I meant by irrelevant. I meant it is irrelevant in the discussion between the kill/bf relation.

Lastly, as I said, I'm not trying to attack you in any way. Sorry if I have lost my temper, but it feels frustrating you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.
Now I understand it must feel frustrating to you as well, hence I hope this discussion is soon over.

The kill bonus does not affect the use of specials unless the bonus is very high. Then it would mean kill value should be lowered even more. So, previously mentioned by
"affecting gameplay" what is, for the most part, meant is that it should not be clear what Specials such as Portal and Repeller should be used for. A portal or repeller is a
guaranteed kill or survival, or at minimum the cost of one or both of those specials for the opposing player. Thus, the value of a kill should be close to the worth of how
many flags can be obtained at ding in a combat situation. In other words, how many bell flags do you need to acquire for it to make up for your death during the fight
for those?

If the kill value is 120, you need to acquire at minimum 4 bell flags to make up for your death, and this is wrong. The purpose of DSB is to be a bell flag game. We just
want to find the optimal value so that saving specials for the ding could be beneficial but suiciding for flags or after ding to get new specials would not be wise. Currently,
or with 120 value, only fools would use a single special, even a rocket for a Bell Flag.

[jim the chin]

Again, stop trying to tell me that what I've proposed is some kind of outlandish, extreme view. It's not that different from what you want. The only difference is you want to change things more drastically than I do.

Also, I didn't say in my post that the league kill value should be changed mid-league. I'm only talking about it because it provides a useful comparison with the prac scoring system.

My view is not set in stone. So how about a compromise? If reducing kill points is all that is important to you, what about this solution:

Base Kill Value - Reduce to 100 points per kill.
Kill Flag Points - Reduce to 4*flagcount per kill.
Bell Flag Points - Keep at 10 points per flag, per player.

This will make kills worth about 45%, bell-flags about 35%, and flag points from kills about 20% (based on the prac scores quoted earlier).

I simply can't play a game where bell-flags are the most important thing though. Mindless special-spamming at dings is not my idea of fun. Imagine the tube-whoring that we'd get (that we USED to get with players like lener and DJ).

Actually no.. See an 80-points kill equals worth of 2.66 bell flags. In other words, this means wasting specials is beneficial only if you can acquire 3 flags by that.

You're ignoring the `kill flag points' though. If you acquire "3 bell flags" then any immediate kills you get will be worth 15 more points to you, and any deaths you incur will be worth 15 less points to the other team. It's basically an extra 30 point turnaround that you're not considering.

Also, I'm not even saying that specials will be used solely to get bell flags. They'd be used to get kills too, because killing an opponent obviously gets you access to the flags. You'd be turning the game into a 10 second rape-fest where the other 70 seconds are mere preparation for said rape-fest. Any team with sense will lay some ports, sit in the tube, and wait for 10 seconds before the ding.

[falconeer]

So glad you think of hitler when you think of me sever.

What ideas have I had that are not supported? Snake agrees that WinR only is stupid. He would recode how rating is calculated completely. I never proposed how to make a rating system since I'm not a coder. Because of that fact I'm not proposing any ideas, Just stating that I want the current system to be made better. As such its impossible for anyone to disagree with improvement unless they are a moron. That's why entropy said in his post that he WISHES he could improve it, but he currently doesn't know how to. If snake was sysop and remade the system, it remains to be seen if it was better, but I'd prefer he try as opposed to us being retards and whining and saying nothing should be tried.

So again I just want something better that is not entirely based on wins or losses. All that aside that is one "idea" I've had which Tembest and Sever consider not supported just because they don't agree. Who else disagrees? I guess two people do make up the entire community now. One idea is not enough of a basis to say ALL my ideas are not widely supported. All my ideas, are in fact not even mine. I usually support other people's ideas. As for maps, no one saw my maps, and I'm not looking for support on them since I'm not trying to push them on the zone or anyone. They can be themes, they can stay on my computer, or they can become the new pub. Either way I'm happy because I like mapping. WinR is fine, the problem is it's the only factor being considered in determining your rating.

At any rate I'm inclined to agree with Tembest on the value not being as high as 120. And I agree with Sever that the kill bonus can stay.

P.S I was there and I remember the thread on old DSB forums about the kill bonus, how much it should be worth, and other things. Tembest is speaking from experience and knowledge of past problems and arguments from like 2006.

[Tembest]

The only difference is you want to change things more drastically than I do.

Actually.. it's just the opposite. The current system is not there by design. It is an accident. The scoring system was designed for 6 vs 6 league.
In 3 vs 3, an identical version would be to reduce the value of a kill to half (75) and do the same to the bonus (2.5*flag count).

Base Kill Value - Reduce to 100 points per kill.
Kill Flag Points - Reduce to 4*flagcount per kill.
Bell Flag Points - Keep at 10 points per flag, per player.

This will make kills worth about 45%, bell-flags about 35%, and flag points from kills about 20% (based on the prac scores quoted earlier).

This is getting closer already.

I simply can't play a game where bell-flags are the most important thing though. Mindless special-spamming at dings is not my idea of fun. Imagine the tube-whoring that we'd get (that we USED to get with players like lener and DJ).

Surprisingly many players like the tube whoring. (I'm not saying I'm one of them)

You're ignoring the `kill flag points' though. If you acquire "3 bell flags" then any immediate kills you get will be worth 15 more points to you, and any deaths you incur will be worth 15 less points to the other team. It's basically an extra 30 point turnaround that you're not considering.

As I stated one hundred posts ago, this is where we disagree. I believe the kill bonus increases the value of kills and flags, hence is a neutral factor. You believe the
bonus solely increases the value of flags. Besides, it's about how many bell flags are worth dying for. Worth dying for equals worth of portal or repeller. How many bell
flags do you need to acquire to make up for your death when fighting for the bell flags? Anything above 3 is too much.

Also, I'm not even saying that specials will be used solely to get bell flags. They'd be used to get kills too, because killing an opponent obviously gets you access to the flags. You'd be turning the game into a 10 second rape-fest where the other 70 seconds are mere preparation for said rape-fest. Any team with sense will lay some ports, sit in the tube, and wait for 10 seconds before the ding.

The truth is I'm not turning anything into something else. The current system has "officially"
never been in use. It is an accident. Kills have never in DSB history been valued more than:
150 points fixed per kill
5*flag count kill bonus
in a 6 vs 6 league.

In a 6 vs 6 a bell flag is worth 60 points. You do the math.
This was the first system that ever received a significant amount of positive feedback from veteran players because bell flags were no longer overvalued, but the goal of
the game was still to obtain as many flags as possible at ding. In other words, the primary method to win games is to win dings, but suiciding for flags or after ding to
get specials was no longer smart.

DSB has always been a bell flag game. As I mentioned we have also played one league with no fixed kill reward at all. We only had the kill bonus. A kill was worth
x*flag count. That's it. In addition we had bell flags. By using your logic, as you claim kill bonus adds value to flags and takes away from kills, kills were not worth
anything in that league, it was all a flagging game.

[Tembest]

So again I just want something better that is not entirely based on wins or losses. All that aside that is one "idea" I've had which Tembest and Sever consider not supported just because they don't agree. Who else disagrees? I guess two people do make up the entire community now. One idea is not enough of a basis to say ALL my ideas are not widely supported. All my ideas, are in fact not even mine. I usually support other people's ideas. As for maps, no one saw my maps, and I'm not looking for support on them since I'm not trying to push them on the zone or anyone. They can be themes, they can stay on my computer, or they can become the new pub. Either way I'm happy because I like mapping. WinR is fine, the problem is it's the only factor being considered in determining your rating.

At any rate I'm inclined to agree with Tembest on the value not being as high as 120. And I agree with Sever that the kill bonus can stay.

I'm not really referring to the last discussion. I actually agreed with you there. I told you I would gladly accept any rating system solely based on individual performance if
somebody comes up with one that is not easily exploited. Just in general I see people disagree with you a lot, hence the comparison. The latest one I can think of is how
marvelous sysop you would make. Anyway, I genuinely do not want to get into this discussion. It was a simple comparison based on a feeling I had with no intention to
insult anyone.

[jim the chin]

Temb, that league without a fixed kill reward was all a flagging game because, unless you flagged, you wouldn't get a single point for your kills. As for the rest of your post, I've answered all of it in previous posts. It's not worth repeating myself again.

I've said what needed to be said. I've even tried to stretch that position as far as it can go in your direction. I guess my compromise wasn't good enough for you either, so I'll leave it there. I see now that we'll never agree.

Falc, I wasn't comparing you to Hitler lol. I'm not even saying your ideas are often wrong. I was making a joke to illustrate how meaningless comparisons like that are. It's like he was saying "you're similar to someone else who I think is wrong most of the time, and therefore you're wrong too". It reminded me of how people compare things to Hitler or the Nazis to make the thing seem evil or wrong (Godwin's Law). Oh, and two people aren't required to represent the whole community. Tembest talks for everyone in DSB remember. He's the voice of the silent majority. You can't argue with the silent majority. Everyone knows that!

[Tembest]

Temb, that league without a fixed kill reward was all a flagging game because, unless you flagged, you wouldn't get a single point for your kills. As for the rest of your post, I've answered all of it in previous posts. It's not worth repeating myself again.

I've said what needed to be said. I've even tried to stretch that position as far as it can go in your direction. I guess my compromise wasn't good enough for you either, so I'll leave it there. I see now that we'll never agree.

And, without killing, you also wouldn't get a single point. Do you finally get my point? The kill bonus is dependent on both factors.

I agree there is no need to keep this argument going on. I just hope you bear in mind the designed system is actually: (for 3 vs 3)
75 points per kill
2.5*flagcount kill bonus
10 points bell flag

or alternatively

150 points per kill
5*flagcount kill bonus
20 points bell flag

Does this system function to you or is there something wrong with it? Please state your opinion and I will take it into consideration without any
counter arguments.