Re-Organizing DSB

[jim the chin]

I'll need to look into it.

One thing to note - the points from f2 are not necessarily the same as those from the bot. The prac bot keeps track of points independently from f2, and bases those points on the settings inside the bot for the league and particular arena. So synching it up with f2 is not required, but more of a bonus.

Fly Swatter might know how. For the pub bot he's making, he was writing code that increases the killbase value as the population increases (or the number of flags in play increases). A lot of the code he's using comes from the prac bot, so it might be easy to borrow that. I don't know how far he's got though.

[GKUA]

1 flag is worth 20 Points West
1 flag is worth 30 Points East
1 flag is worth 30 Points South
1 flag is worth 40 Points North

Shouldn't ALL sectors have the same bell flag point?! They should all be worth 30 points.

A bell flag in North is worth 1.33333333 times more than in East or South, because there are 4 ppl that get the bell flag reward points, instead of 3.

I just want to point out that West is currently being played 3 vs 3 as well, so the kill point value in West can be equal to East and South, if we keep playing it 3 vs 3 atleast...

[falconeer]

I don't get it. Why would the amount of people playing affect how much a bell flag is actually worth?

There are more flags North so if flags were worth the same all over the deathstar, north would still contain a majority of the points, and the ability to get those points because it has 1 extra player.

I don't understand why we have different points for different sectors yet.

There are already more flags North for one which makes up for the extra person. So saying we have 1 extra player, so we need more points to divide among 4 people makes little sense. By that logic in East 20 flags equals 3 people. That means 1 person is comparable to 6.6 flags. In north 6.6 times four people is 26 flags. Meaning there is more than enough flags to divide among the team. In south its 1 person comparable to 8 flags. And in north that means 4 people divide among 32 flags perfectly. Again why are north flags worth more? Again if the logic is that there is 1 extra person. Then shouldn't flags be 1 times greater in points? Why is it 1.3 times. Is there .3 of a person unaccounted for?

[Tembest]

Falc, I'll try to explain it very quickly and hope you get why we are having this discussion.
Technically a bell flag is always just as valuable (10 points for each player on the team).
When a kill is always worth the same let's say 80. It means:
In case of 2 vs 2 the points awarded to the team by a bell flag are 20, while a kill is 80.
The BF/KILL relation is thus 1 kill is worth 4 bell flags.

Now, why does this matter?

It changes the gameplay in sectors. See in West, it would not make sense to commit a suicide after every ding, or use all your
specials at ding because the likelihood is that you will lose more points that gain. If you do not kill someone, you basically need a
minimum of 4 bell flags with your portal or you have just wasted it.

Whereas in North, it makes the gameplay completely different as it would actually make sense to suicide after dings to get specials for
the next ding. Save the specials and use those for the bell flag because to make up for your death you only have to obtain 2 BF's as
you have 4 players on your team hence 40 points per Bf's. The BF/KILL relation is thus 1 kill is worth 2 bell flags.

Our discussion is not based on the amount of kills in a prac or any other assumptions. The benefits of having an adjustable kill reward
based on the player count is that the BF/KILL relation stays the same. Hope you got it now.

[falconeer]

Yep, thanks for the clear explanation. We should probably have someone write up how all of this works. As well as how the bot calculates everything. And put it all on the website.

It's good for future discussions, and so people don't forget, and so others can follow along.

[Tembest]

I'll try to remember to do it once we have changed the scoring system.

[jim the chin]

Code: Select all

Second half statistics:
  .-----------------+--+----------------------------+---------------------+--------------------------+------------------------+
 / Name             | P|   Ki/De   Ratio  As  EA  TK|  FT/BF   AvgBF   FE |  K-Dp  TRat Points   Time|   PowR      WinR      C|
/=============================================================================================================================|
| Beer Hunter       | E|   24/19    1.26   7   0   0|  71/53    3.79  114%|   750  1575   5910  20:00| 1042/-1   1117/+6      |
| Sever             | E|   22/21    1.05  10   0   0|  63/56    4.00  120%|   150  1290   5740  20:00| 1184/-1   1452/+5   203|
| gog               | E|   15/24    0.63   7   0   0|  56/32    2.29   69%| -1350  -750   4615  20:00|  977/-4    782/+7      |
|-------------------+--+----------------------------+---------------------+--------------------------+------------------------|
|Freq 1             | 3|   61/64    0.95  24   0   0| 190/141  10.07  101%|  -450  2115  16265  60:00| 3203/-6   3351/+18  203|
|=============================================================================================================================|
| Sulla             | E|   27/24    1.13   8   0   0|  44/23    1.64   49%|   450   285   6345  20:00|  994/+1   1003/-5      |
| Exar              | E|   26/15    1.73   6   9   0|  63/46    3.29   99%|  1650  2940   5750  20:00| 1007/+4   1276/-6     -|
| nokkonen          | E|   11/22    0.50  12   0   0|  85/66    4.71  141%| -1650   375   3965  20:00| 1077/+2   1132/-15     |
|-------------------+--+----------------------------+---------------------+--------------------------+------------------------|
|Freq 0             | 3|   64/61    1.05  26   9   0| 192/135   9.64   96%|   450  3600  16060  60:00| 3078/+7   3411/-26    0|
+=============================================================================================================================+
Most Kills (27):          Sulla
Most Deaths (24):         Sulla, gog
Most Assists (15):        Exar
Most Flag Touches (85):   nokkonen
Most Bell Flags (66):     nokkonen
Most Battles (59):        Sulla
Best Ratio (1.73):        Exar
Best Play Rating (3.72):  Exar
Best Team Rating (2940):  Exar
MVP (6345):               Sulla
Bell    Flag Averages Freq 0: 9.6, Freq 1: 10.1
Overall Flag Averages Freq 0: 9.7, Freq 1: 9.4
Score Freq 0: 16060, Freq 1: 16265.  Freq 1 by 205

A recent prac. We won by 6 flags, but lost by 3 kills. It was an even game that our flagging narrowly won. Doesn't this seem fine to you? I'm telling you that kill-points are fine like this. They may be slightly high, but they certainly shouldn't be halved (at least not while the kill-bonus is part of the scoring).

ENT, why are standings and rank done by POWR now? I thought that was a largely meaningless stat. I'm not even sure how POWR is calculated though.

[falconeer]

if POWR is meaningless, then WINR is really meaningless. Wins and losses to determine ratings? On teams you made in 1 second and never played with before? Giving me an individual rating in a team game? As if my inability to carry 2 noobs vs. a stacked team makes me a bad player...

[Tembest]

A recent prac. We won by 6 flags, but lost by 3 kills. It was an even game that our flagging narrowly won. Doesn't this seem fine to you? I'm telling you that kill-points are fine like this. They may be slightly high, but they certainly shouldn't be halved (at least not while the kill-bonus is part of the scoring).

Your flags were worth 180 points, while their 3 kills were worth 450 points. You obviously won because you happened to kill at the correct moments.

As you can see from this: Overall Flag Averages Freq 0: 9.7, Freq 1: 9.4 , you actually had less flags on average during the game, but somehow were lucky enough to
kill exactly when you had the most flags, hence actually rewarded more points for your kills than the other team.

Not to mention bell flags have brought you 4230 points out of your 16265 points.

The point is, had you forgotten about flagging and focused merely on killing, you would have won by perhaps 2000 points?! Flagging does not make any sense.

Even flagging AN entire flag pole does not make up for your death...

I really thought we had this discussion already.

[jim the chin]

The point is that having more kills isn't always going to win you the game. Having flags when you make those kills is important, as are the bell flags. Combined, these two factors are just as important, if not more important than out-killing the other team. I'm trying to get you to understand that the poorly named "kill-bonus" is just another form of flag points. Though that's partly my mistake. In the code it's actually called "killflagpoints". Together with bell-flags, it matches the reward for killing... giving us that flag:kill equilibrium we all want.

So, if you want to remove some of those flag points by getting rid of the "kill-bonus" then sure, reduce kill points to 80 to compensate, but don't make out that things aren't relatively balanced as they are.

I think most people would be happy with the way those scores look. It should have been close, and it was.

-EDIT- Actually, the more I think about this, the more I like the scoring system the way it is. I don't want all the flagging to be done at the bells, with everyone making a mad dash with 10 seconds to go, and the other 70 seconds being completely pointless. It's better if there's a kind of territorial advantage going on throughout the game, where having more flags gets you more points for your kills.