DSB Pub

General discussion

Moderators: Beer Hunter, Tembest, Entr0py

Tembest
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:12 am

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Tembest »

Seriel Killer wrote:
Tembest wrote: From your perspective, I am the guy who never does anything but simply criticises others' ideas. It's true, it's absolutely
true
I have been playing a few other games and none of them ever had
to go through this kind of process. you are making this too big of an issue
like, if we don't get this right 99.99% the zone would die.
This system is what got DSB to where it is today.
Actually, no that's not the system that got DSB where it is. That's maybe what people told you, but that's not the truth. The truth is that they didn't even use time
to consider your or anyone else's ideas. But once again, using the term Staff is so silly while 95% of Staff never got to say a word before Ent took over.
Basically what you call "Staff" was Hoch + whoever agreed with him. Whoever wasn't on the same page, was not allowed to voice their opinion.

The system that killed dsb went like this: "No, we don't want anything new. DSB is good as it is."
"We don't want to change anything because it's traditional." "DSB has always been like this."
"Everyone will leave if we change something."

No one who is still around thinks this way..
Except maybe Detector who believes DSB would revive if we returned things to what they were 3 years ago.

I would be ready to grant the zone to whoever wants it. We have nothing except a year of lousy 3vs3 leagues to lose.
Or then... all of you willing to help could just approach Ent and actually tell him WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, and my guess is that he will let you try what you suggest.

If this endless blaming of one another and claiming person A would do so much better than person B in whatever just ended DSB might actually have a chance.
Even Delic's plan requires everyone to actually follow him and to be on the same page. It doesn't matter who owns the zone, or who is the head sysop... if everyone
simply were on the same page. I can guarantee that if Delic for example, wrote his great plan in black and white, he would be allowed to implement it, and would
most likely get lots of people to help him because based on his words I believe it's pretty much the only option we have left. Besides, I agree with most of the stuff he says.

Nubby
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Nubby »

The problem with Subspace in 2012 is that the gameplay & graphics are so bad compared with anything else right now I can think of 235257 other things I would do than play it such as go out on a nice beach-walk with my fiancé or head down to the pub for a drink with my mates heck even for gaming I would rather play an MMO or even Skyrim before coming onto Subspace. The ONE and ONLY thing Subspace has going for it is the community and the friends you have played this game with growing up. Unfortunately DSB has such a fragmented and self-serving community that the once 3rd most populous zone is now where it is. Couple that with the fact that the only people who like the zone settings are vets cause they can continue to 10-0 any newbie and you have a zone with 0 incoming people.

Normally I would just go, It is what it is an enjoy what is left of the game and have fun but I got snaked into wasting 2 hours in Deva which inspired me. Side Note, the Deva staff is so much nicer than the DSB one I mean -
(tm_master)>hey, i respect your opinions about the zone, and i do appreciate you playing
(tm_master)>thanks for you comments on anti_la..we are still developing it
(tm_master)>and most of all, thanks for playing.
That is how you get people to stick around instead of having Jesster pointless bluespam chasing everyone away.

Anyways, the whole point of public is to facilitate league gameplay. Playing in whatever league keeps the zone alive, HZ, EG, even DSB- when you run whatever league, the population of your zone increased. The next public map should be based on whatever the future league of DSB is going to be. Me (and Mati) suggested DSB to be rebuilt around BABL cause its a great and fun concept while still being able to keep the ship sets, but whatever it is, the pub map and main league map of the zone should be the same. It would probably be a smart idea to change the public map into a smaller map given the current zone population and the fact that in 2012 no one likes going around to collect 100 orbs.

The other problem is you have people here typing out pages and pages of essays (and i am somewhat guilty) but no one is doing anything/nothing gets done heck look at the fact your main bot coder and sysop has been semi-inactive for the past 6 months and there hasn't even been a replacement yet.

So, here are my 2 proposals on affirmative action (feel free to shoot it down but at least I am actively going to do something instead of just typing essays)

#1 - You want to talk about why there is no SS as a whole. Here is why, no one wants to give up power. Want to actually play 12v12 DSB again? Swallow some pride, I could get either TW or EG to host DSB as a sub-arena and have 12v12 pickup games every weekend. Heck, whoever wants to modify sets or map could even retain sysop in that arena.

#2 - Option 2.
I'm willing to host a Task Force or Council session where we talk in game and then make stuff happen with at least the following people involved - Kemi, BH, Mati, Fly Swatter, Eridu & Detector. Wouldn't mind more peoples opinion/involvement but the idea is to keep people who would waste our time out of it. I'm also going to ask s_fcdb and Sinep as well as maybe a couple of my other friends to join in on the discussion so we have a coder and a map maker/gfx designer to see if it is possible to do whatever is discussed.
Option 2 is basically the "reboot" option that has been suggested on the thread but instead of just words, this is your zone and I'm just helping with the process. Note: This will probably mean DSB 12v12 is dead and buried forever.
If you like Option 2, pick a Cambodian/Australian Friendly time and we can make this happen.

** I was inspired by my local political party, Deva and Eridu a couple of months back telling me everyone is all talk but no action so here is some action**

jim the chin
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:17 pm

Re: DSB Pub

Post by jim the chin »

Fly Swatter wrote:The 10k pound gorilla in the room at the moment is reverting back to simpler times. Forcing better team play by GUTTING PRIZES and PRIVATE FREQS. The game for NOW ATLEAST will be a very simple 15 DING GAME.

Do I make this happen, or do i sit back and do nothing for the next 2-3 years while we wait for a master plan to form?
Woh.... 15 ding game? That is way too long.

Here's an action plan:

1. Create a pub-proposals thread. The conditions of the thread would be as follows: Each post will be a proposal that consists of a game-type definition (turf flagging, soccer, carry-flagging, something else) followed by a 300 word summary of how it would work. Maps and graphics can be attached to demonstrate the proposal, but keep it to 300 words (Delic..).
2. Create a dev-team of about 10 people who can contribute to these ideas, or who have a lot of zone experience. Get a good cross-section of the zone, e.g. Even if kemi can't/won't contribute to making anything, he is nevertheless a good representative of the veterans in this zone and has good ideas.
3. Create a dev team forum where all the pub proposals are copied into one thread. Allow the devvers to discuss the proposals. After a few days of discussion, open the voting and see which proposal is accepted.
4. Make it!
Please delete this account. I want nothing to do with this place any more.

Beer Hunter
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:29 pm
Location: Finland

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Beer Hunter »

Uh-Huh. I'm not a fan of writing very meaningful things but let's see where I end up with this... :mrgreen:

First of all I'd like to say a few things about these characters who pop up every two years, claiming they have a big "plan" which solves everything - the only thing we need to do is to bend over and let them come in, then you'll see what happens. :shock:
I'll say this much, it's bs. There has been plenty of these guys around, always coming to address the biggest issues and talking about things what people want to hear - hoping that this time the popularity contest ends to them getting ultimate control over the zone. What makes them better than anybody in the past? You're trying to claim the "throne" for yourself to do what YOU think would save DSB, instead of trying with the current administration who you don't like or *insert excuse here*.

Why are you any more qualified to lead a zone than the current administration is if you're showing exactly same principles which some unnamed character showed for year? Not revealing plans to the public, making fancy posts which show you can talk - but can you put money where your mouth is? Also I want to point out that this community has different kind of characters and in order to be able to work in zone management you need to be able to work with everybody - another example of why you're really disgusting me, you claim you can do good - however only if the people you hate on personal level leave the zone or you get the chance to humiliate them.

Okay let's move forward.

The public has been our weak spot for a while now, the leagues kept our zone alive with the majority of veterans playing those leagues every year, enjoying that and sometimes blowing some steam on public. Now, we have a new generation of pubbers, believe it or not. This new generation is something what some of us oldies might not easily understand - they love those specials and getting their things easily on public. They've learned, mainly because we had to adjust our public to fit small population - which lead to us creating private freqs and a game which actually supports the 1vs1 - 3vs3 games. While I agree that we should focus on team oriented concept more on public - it isn't that simple, you will risk losing the regular pubbers if you push team game too much. Me and Eridu have had several discussions in public, with the current "new generation", about the status of public and while their voice is hardly heard here, I'll say it: they love the public the way it is atm.

For this new generation it's more important to play their solo game, boost their own ship with those tokens, blow off some steam and have fun. They, at least some of them, realize that the main concept of the game is to have teamwork and a team goal, however they realize this does not fit to public with the current situation being what it is. Our public does not have enough people most of the time to support team games, we're forced to think about the small population possibilities and focus on that more.

Putting a team oriented game to public which is forced at all times might kill the public for good, currently when I'm writing this, the public has 2vs1 game going on. Take a guess would it be happening if you could not get anything for playing basically by yourself - it wouldn't get far.

It is not simple, not at all. Basically what we might need is a system where team oriented game turns on when the public has higher numbers, let's say 5vs5+, that way the lower population wouldn't be hurt so much if the public does not have enough people for a team game. Tricky system this might be - in order for this kind of thing to work we'd need to somehow limit the usage of tokens you can earn during low population hours so the bigger game does not turn to big supership fest, instead it moves forward as a team game. Obviously there will be these solo players playing even if a team oriented game is implemented, there has always been and there will be - we cannot completely change that.

If we take a quick look at the oldies, the ones who supported and carried our leagues this far - well they are now on brink of extinction. Many reasons why they've abandoned us, plenty of them have a life, wife, kids, mortgage.. you know the drill, at least once you get there. There is no way we can get them back, even if we switched public completely to fit the one we had 2003ish. I know this sounds harsh to the remaining veterans, I know you'd love to play the public the way it was back in the good old days - I would too. But I've come to realize it is impossible, restoring the old public risks our current population - which is weak and would most likely leave if they were forced to play such a simple concept. Think of this as a movie, the old DSB was the first part and now we're doing sequels, the masses (ha ha) are waiting for more of everything - more fun.

The basic team play concept for public - if there's to be one, needs to be simple. That's what I agree with. It needs to allow solo players to play too - it must not interfere their own fun - the blowing of some steam typish stuff some do regularly, they couldn't care less about team games.

This brings me to another problem, I already mentioned this in my previous post. The leagues. Public and league has always worked in symbiosis with each other - both basically gaining something from each other. However, now the time has come that our leagues are not getting the steady flow of new players they once had. This is a major problem which is why I've spoken about this too with some of the pubbers - the answer was either that they don't care about having more competition, they just wish to have fun or then that they have no time for leagues.

Basically the situation with leagues is, we need more population to public, those young and hungry players who have time to play and wish to become good at this game. The only way this is going to work is to get our public gaining attention and players - or then to keep beating the nearly dead horse who'll die within few years. Somebody suggested fresh ideas for league, well please, tell us a new idea what you think might attract players - we're not stopping you from speaking what you've got in your mind. Changing the person in charge of leagues hardly helps, those ideas still need to come from somewhere, not to mention that the current resources prevent us from creating very fancy leagues. If you'd be staff, even on the lowest level, you'd see that none of us can just swing our magic wand and come up with bots linked to websites.

These discussions are useful, however these end up turning against themselves every time. Somebody walks in and starts his own show of "If I were the king.." which leads us away from the main issues which are to brainstorm what to do - find that golden middle way, get a consensus. Of course we can NEVER get everybody to agree on everything so we all must be ready to compromise.

Finally, if you have people, like you say you do, let's see what you've got. Make us a public theme which fits the parameters I've described above - or come to public and talk with the players to get ideas. Then go back to your corner, along with those mysterious devs and make map, bot, coordinate together with us. I can guarantee you that your theme will have a shot - perhaps you can actually gain some inches to your ePenis by doing more than just talking.

Don't answer with excuses, no fancy riddles or words. Lets drag that cat to the table and get down to business, the door is open for any of you to join the dev team and actually DO something - or to write about your plan to these forums. Try to have some self criticism while planning though, every time somebody comes up with a plan and there are rough edges, it tends to end to the original planner saying that it was fucked up by staff. It won't be fucked up on purpose, it might need modding based on our systems or the player base itself, it might have loopholes etc which we figured out and had to patch somehow.

Well, did I already mention I'm not a fan of writing these speeches? The main thing what everybody are talking about - unity and coming together - is not working here. Everybody are promoting their own plans because they think they are superior to other's. Lets start compromising and find the good sides of these plans, bring them together and.. perhaps we can still achieve something.

Just my few cents, don't mind listening, it's just another result of observing this discussion and the community. ;)

Nubby
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Nubby »

Not sure you meant me BH but if you did I think you missed my point so I'll try again.
If you didn't mean me then uh sorry I took offence :P

I want to host an ingame decorum chat session with at least the following people present: BH, Kemi, Mati, Fly Swatter, Eridu & Detector. I want to also bring a few of my friends to help out with this project. Stuff that they can do which we can't. (Time/Work Notwithstanding)

I'm not going to claim to know much about DSB, I have done 3 DSBLs, 1 with Lego, 1 with Pink Sock and 1 with NF. They were each 3-4 years apart. I have also not pitched or proposed any major concepts. Like I said before, I'm a SSer, not a DSBer, I go with the flow and enjoy the game/community as opposed to individual zones. What I want is to do hear the opinions of the people I listed because they are the ones who are still actively supporting the zone and the community in whatever various avenues.

Sure we could do what you guys have been doing going back and forth with reports I would only be bothered writing up at work to get paid. Alternatively, I'm saying if you really care about DSB and want a say in its future, we could maybe all get together this Saturday, 16:00 GMT to nerd it up for maybe 1-2 hours and come up with a proper solution? (Date/Time is flexible)

Option 1 as always is still on the table too.

At the end of the day, DSB is still this community. It is up to you guys (myself included) to make this work.

In Response to Jim :)

SIDENOTE: The people I have listed are the people I want to work with to form this "Dev Team" although I prefer/am used to calling these teams Task Force Teams either ways, same meaning different wording. I welcome other people to come on during the chat session as well since this is your zone.

PS: I suggested creating a Task Force Forum 2 months ago whereby the people on the Task Force/Dev Team would discuss issues internally and then make a decision or bring it out to a poll. This Forum would then be able to be public-viewed like 2 weeks after the discussion has been closed for public reference as to how the decision was made/came about. It is the current system HZ uses and it works like a peach.

PPS: This is the Pub-Proposal Thread. Do you see any of this getting done or just more back and forth bickering. I thought so too.

Beer Hunter
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:29 pm
Location: Finland

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Beer Hunter »

I'm down for any chat session, the long post I made was towards certain individuals who are claiming they know & got resources, however do not want to do anything until they've claimed the throne (ownership of the zone). Don't take any offence over it (any one of you), it's just a healthy breeze of wind whispering "wake up and look at the mirror".

These discussions over here about improving public or something else start well, but at some point get seriously off topic. Well I'll start, I'm down to try Fly's theme, the one he is making. If it turns out good in the test we can try it on public - if not, it can be mixed with active sector idea by jim.

Obviously that chat, if we can get people to come, might give some alternative ideas but must note all kind of players on this process. (That is the key and most difficult thing to do).

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Fly Swatter
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:09 am

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Fly Swatter »

Nubby wrote: Anyways, the whole point of public is to facilitate league gameplay. Playing in whatever league keeps the zone alive, HZ, EG, even DSB- when you run whatever league, the population of your zone increased. The next public map should be based on whatever the future league of DSB is going to be. Me (and Mati) suggested DSB to be rebuilt around BABL cause its a great and fun concept while still being able to keep the ship sets, but whatever it is, the pub map and main league map of the zone should be the same. It would probably be a smart idea to change the public map into a smaller map given the current zone population and the fact that in 2012 no one likes going around to collect 100 orbs.
The best thing dsb has going for it is the map (setting aswell), if we lose that then what is the point. You dont need a smaller map for a smaller game, you need sector based game design. Possibly no one has had the ability to make change in this zone in the past, or maybe its just a lack of creativity. The other issue i think has plagued this zone is time based game design thats depended on scoring. The scoring system is two parts flag score and kill score, and as far as i know there has never been a good way to normalize theses two. To get to my point: IMO, DSB need to be goal oriented, sector based, on the original map, for both pub and league.
Nubby wrote: #1 - You want to talk about why there is no SS as a whole. Here is why, no one wants to give up power. Want to actually play 12v12 DSB again? Swallow some pride, I could get either TW or EG to host DSB as a sub-arena and have 12v12 pickup games every weekend. Heck, whoever wants to modify sets or map could even retain sysop in that arena.
This has been rejected by the staff members that I talk to, rejected and laughed at. I cant speak for others and dont know all the staff here, but, well thats what I know.
Nubby wrote: #2 - Option 2.
I'm willing to host a Task Force or Council session where we talk in game and then make stuff happen with at least the following people involved - Kemi, BH, Mati, Fly Swatter, Eridu & Detector. Wouldn't mind more peoples opinion/involvement but the idea is to keep people who would waste our time out of it. I'm also going to ask s_fcdb and Sinep as well as maybe a couple of my other friends to join in on the discussion so we have a coder and a map maker/gfx designer to see if it is possible to do whatever is discussed.
Option 2 is basically the "reboot" option that has been suggested on the thread but instead of just words, this is your zone and I'm just helping with the process. Note: This will probably mean DSB 12v12 is dead and buried forever.
If you like Option 2, pick a Cambodian/Australian Friendly time and we can make this happen.
Personally, I feel exhausted. Three years of trying to help this zone. Then one day out of nowhere im on staff (Eridu forced the issue) with what I need to actually many do something. I dont know I think I just want to put a stupid timed game into pub for now (classic dsb stuff), then maybe get back to work on dsb-asss.

Dont let me stop the reset of you, but if its a "reboot" for godsakes do it on asss.
Nubby wrote: ** I was inspired by my local political party, Deva and Eridu a couple of months back telling me everyone is all talk but no action so here is some action**

User avatar
Fly Swatter
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:09 am

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Fly Swatter »

I should correct myself and say I'll try to be there. But, my job puts me on call. I cant promise anything, but i'll follow the discussion best that I can if it happens.

Nubby
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Nubby »

To Fly,
Thats why I want you to come and be part of our chat session / part of the Task Force Fly. You're a valuable member of the community who for years have struggled to get stuff done alone. I'm trying to get more people involved and more to help. Having a dev team of previously 2 people (BH & Eridu) and now 3 (You + BH + Eridu) is dumb.

Want to reboot on ASSS, we could always bring that up during the discussion. Should be up to the zone to decide. Again, the difference in our opinions on what league/pub etc can and should be trashed out in the "sit-down" meeting :)

I personally love ASSS, HZ has been using it for 6-7 years now and it is amazing, the replays, the ability for the module to call stuff and do web-live streams of hockey zone league matches. Unfortunately I have 0 experience in ASSS as opposed to limited stuff in Subgame but I'm sure there are others who will be willing to step up.

Also, RL is RL and shit happens. At the end of the day this is a game and the idea is to try and make the most of it and have fun. :)

To Beer,
Like I said, I'm not really a DSBer and I hardly touch pub but feel free to tell other valued members of the community about the "State of DSB" discussion. I'm going to throw down the reasons as to why I called out whoever to come (and this is again imo)

Beer Hunter - Because he has been running the league for 23263578 years.
Eridu - Because he is the current head ER
Kemi - Because he is a respected league player with new school ideas.
Detector - Because he is stuck in 2000 and I want a die-hard in the conversation
Fly Swatter - Because he plays public more than anyone else. / See Above
Matioso- Because I have known him for years and wouldn't have come back to DSB (twice) if it wasn't for him :P

Again, if I didn't single you out, it doesn't mean you aren't important etc etc, please don't get me wrong. I just want like BH said to get a voice from the different types of players.

Tembest
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:12 am

Re: DSB Pub

Post by Tembest »

This will come out a bit bluntly...

But having a meeting without an agenda is pointless.
Meetings are held all the time and 80% of the time is a waste because there is no agenda nor minutes written after the meeting.
It doesn't stop there. After minutes you create tasklist and closely monitor the progress of everything agreed.

Because what will happen with your meeting without any coordination is that most of the time used will be a waste.
After that you've gathered some great ideas randomly but haven't really agreed how or most importantly, who or when would
they be implemented. Even if you somehow managed to agree on these things, unfortunately 90% won't be done, as always in
dsb.

To take any use of something like that takes a lot more than just gathering together...

So I suggest you start writing your agenda now, and send it to the people who you want to invite so they can add everything
they want before you start discussing stuff. Are you up for this all, or do you just want to hold a useless meeting and believe it
would do some good for the zone? Because I, or anyone else can host a meeting 20GMT tonight with 10 people and talk.

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