I suggest that DSB negotiates to move to TW

[Entr0py]

I'll say first off that I'm not opposed to the idea.

I just want to hear why people think moving to tw would make DSB more popular than it is as its own zone?

The main argument I've heard is that most ex-dsb players are now in TW. OK, so we go to tw. Why should we believe that by making a dsb sub-arena in tw, the ex-dsbers will play that instead of the other tw games that they've already become addicted to and intertwined with? I have a feeling that when they went to tw, they turned the page. I'm not convinced that having dsb right there would result in any more playing dsb games.

Secondly, for pub. Since obviously dsb wouldn't be the main pub arena, we wouldn't be getting new players. Not that we have new players anyways, but the point is, our numbers will either remain flat, or decline. To remain flat, that assumes that a switch to tw wouldn't piss off/confuse our current pub base. I find it most likely that our occasional pub players try to get into dsb, see that it's red, and quit.

Those are the first fears I have, and I'd like to see what people have to say to alleviate them.

[Tembest]

I am not really convinced either.

Even though the situation is that DSB has only a couple of active players,
and we don't have much to lose, there is the possibility of DSB dying faster.

1. If we moved to TW, I don't see them accepting our proposal unless we
give them full control over DSB.

2. Even the few DSB players would probably move to TW pub to get some
people to talk to. They would wait for DSB pracs in TW pub. I see no reason
for anyone to play DSB pub anymore.

3. League is the only one with actual potential of growth. I guess that's
what we all care about the most but... even that is not guaranteed in any way.

4. I still don't see TW gaining enough from this to even consider the proposal.

[Fly Swatter]

Here's a thought, stop treating developers like snake and myself like untrust worthy dirtball assholes and give us FULL CONTROL over the development of DSB-AS3. Of course Ent would join the as3 development as he learns the system, as well as continuing to manage prac/league on the old subgame server.

I guess there are many ifandsandbuts but, I can guaranty with %100 certainly that IF Snake AND Ent was to agree to this then dsb WOULD have something new and shiny coming in the not to distant future.

Here's my deal. IF both Snake and Ent are willing to dev DSB-AS3 then I'm in. ANYTHING OTHER THEN THIS and I'm done with caring about what happens.

Swatter

[jim the chin]

Ent, for starters you'll have arena messages in TW pub or zone-wide saying "A match is starting in ?go DSBprac". This will alert all DSB players in TW as well as get 200 TW players wondering what DSBprac is. This DSB arena will obviously get much more interest if it was in TW. As for league, the prac arena will generate interest in it.

The problem with pub is the same problem we have on our current server. There is no point to it, so I don't see what you're defending. Until the game has an obective it won't be interesting in DSB or in TW. As a subarena in TW the pub arena will die even faster because people won't be forced into it when they enter the zone. I don't see that as an argument for not moving to TW though.

There are two options as I see it.

1. Stay in DSB and fix pub SOON. Pub is one way to get new people to pracs/league = keeps league alive = keeps veterans interested rather than forcing them into TW.
2. Move to TW, create DSBpub, DSBprac, DSBleague. The DSBpub arena will die pretty quickly, but you will at least have an arena in which to test new games with the DSB settings at your leisure. There is no need to change DSBpub to generate interest in league because TW pub will be doing that job.

Option 2 is probably the easiest option. I'm suggesting we do option 2 because no-one seems willing to do option 1. However, as I write this, Fly Swatter has made an excellent suggestion that may make option 1 possible.

[Entr0py]

Here's a thought, stop treating developers like snake and myself like untrust worthy dirtball assholes and give us FULL CONTROL over the development of DSB-AS3. Of course Ent would join the as3 development as he learns the system, as well as continuing to manage prac/league on the old subgame server.

I guess there are many ifandsandbuts but, I can guaranty with %100 certainly that IF Snake AND Ent was to agree to this then dsb WOULD have something new and shiny coming in the not to distant future.

Here's my deal. IF both Snake and Ent are willing to dev DSB-AS3 then I'm in. ANYTHING OTHER THEN THIS and I'm done with caring about what happens.

Swatter

I've asked snake many times to join dev and help out with this. The most recent occasion being about 2 weeks ago. You convince him. My offer is still open

Ent, for starters you'll have arena messages in TW pub or zone-wide saying "A match is starting in ?go DSBprac". This will alert all DSB players in TW as well as get 200 TW players wondering what DSBprac is. This DSB arena will obviously get much more interest if it was in TW. As for league, the prac arena will generate interest in it.

The problem with pub is the same problem we have on our current server. There is no point to it, so I don't see what you're defending. Until the game has an obective it won't be interesting in DSB or in TW. As a subarena in TW the pub arena will die even faster because people won't be forced into it when they enter the zone. I don't see that as an argument for not moving to TW though.

There are two options as I see it.

1. Stay in DSB and fix pub SOON. Pub is one way to get new people to pracs/league = keeps league alive = keeps veterans interested rather than forcing them into TW.
2. Move to TW, create DSBpub, DSBprac, DSBleague. The DSBpub arena will die pretty quickly, but you will at least have an arena in which to test new games with the DSB settings at your leisure. There is no need to change DSBpub to generate interest in league because TW pub will be doing that job.

Option 2 is probably the easiest option. I'm suggesting we do option 2 because no-one seems willing to do option 1. However, as I write this, Fly Swatter has made an excellent suggestion that may make option 1 possible.

1) First off, the premise that pub is dying because it doesn't have an objective is just plain wrong. Pub didn't have an objective for 10 years, and thrived. Pub is dying because the zone itself has been losing players for years, and lacks critical mass.

2) Secondly, I'm all for adding an objective, but someone has to make it. I won't dev it myself, because I believe it's a waste of time and won't do anything. But I'd love to be proved wrong.

3) Thirdly, your hypothesis that a zone message in tw advertising a dsb prac would pull ex-dsbers/twers away from their dd or jd or w/e they do there, is only a hypothesis. We have no way to know for certain if that would actually happen, without testing it.

Perhaps, to test it, the first thing would be to approach tw and ask if we can set up a dsb prac arena in tw? Let's see how that goes, before we go on a crusade to merge dsb into tw.

[wo]

I for one welcome our new tw overlords

[jim the chin]

1) First off, the premise that pub is dying because it doesn't have an objective is just plain wrong. Pub didn't have an objective for 10 years, and thrived. Pub is dying because the zone itself has been losing players for years, and lacks critical mass.

2) Secondly, I'm all for adding an objective, but someone has to make it. I won't dev it myself, because I believe it's a waste of time and won't do anything. But I'd love to be proved wrong.

Pub thrived for 10 years because:

1. New players were always arriving.
2. These new players were attracted to a zone with 100 people in it.

Both these conditions have ceased. Like many other zones, DSB's success was a byproduct of the games success as a whole, not from being a good zone with objectivised gameplay. TW continues to be popular, and sucks up players from dying zones like DSB because it has an objective.

Take my example. I can play TW pub for hours because I enjoy the objective of holding the flag for 3 minutes to win a jackpot. I cannot play DSB pub for more 30 minutes without getting bored out of my mind, even if its 8v8. If that 8v8 had an objective, I'd be there much longer. This premise is so simple, and surely more widespread than the example I can give about myself.

3) Thirdly, your hypothesis that a zone message in tw advertising a dsb prac would pull ex-dsbers/twers away from their dd or jd or w/e they do there, is only a hypothesis. We have no way to know for certain if that would actually happen, without testing it.

Again, I can give my example. I would play it. Furthermore, it's common sense that statistically out of 200 TW players, at least some of them will come to try it out. Like someone said, there are more DSB'ers in TW now than in DSB itself. If you play there a bit you'll see this. Where do you think the 12 OB players Super Duper is talking about are residing? We need to get their attention, and we can't do it as easily from another zone.

[Tembest]

Sever has some valid points.

However, as Ent said, it is not very wise to rush into a merger.
We could try to even somehow make TW people convinced of
allowing a DSB Prac arena there, and see if that attracts any people.

If it won't generate DSB pracs in TW, there's no point in moving.

Sure again, league would most likely benefit from this, but are we
willing to sacrifice pub and pracs and events and everything else
to play the game for one hour per week for league?

Edit: Pub's and prac's death also creates a dilemma. We gain new
players to league for a while but because the skill gap between TW
players and DSB is too massive, they don't find it fun. Then, because
they don't have a pub with many players or continuous pracs going
on, they pretty much have no place to practise their DSB skills......
they quit.

[jim the chin]

Ent, do you disagree with this statement?: All successful games have an objective, and all games without an objective would be better if they had one.

Temb, I'm not saying convincing TW will be easy or that it's guaranteed to work. I'm saying it's an easy option for staff who aren't interested in the more difficult option (developing pub with an objective). If I was DSB sysop I would take the easy option because I don't have the time to develop pub. Actually, I would step down and let someone who does want to develop pub do their job (or recruit a team of peeps to do it). Given that we have a sysop who seems not to want an objectivised pub, I'm all for pushing the merger.

What makes you think pracs won't benefit? They'll be advertised to a wider audience, many of who are already familiar with them. This will lead to familiarity with the settings, improvement of skills for newbies, and better leagues.

[Tembest]

We all know how new skill-less people are treated in pracs,
and we all know what happens to them. Now they would have
an even easier escape. "Nah, I'll just get back to playing what
I did before." However, now it would become also an easier
option for DSB'ers. "Well, it's kind of the same zone so I might
just as well play TW events because it's dead here."

If we moved to TW, do you think even the few people who are
still online, would stay in DSB arenas when they have the
chance of simply switching arena to talk to new people?

Remember that when we give pracs and league the possibility
to grow due to TW players, at the same time we increase the
chances of even the few remaining DSB players moving to TW.